truthseeker September 9, 2009

geez that’ll upset the MFAA….wheres their income gonna come from now?
What a waste of money!!

Broker September 9, 2009

I can see a membership fee increase coming………….

George September 9, 2009

Its about time the MFAA forced some kind of qualification onto its members, there are far too many inexperienced cowboys out there that continue to make our industry look unprofessional.

As more planners move into the debt market, brokers need to start lifting their game to step into an advice model. And without a diploma minimum, we will soon become an irrelevant avenue in the finance industry

John September 9, 2009

The FBAA has open arms for you guys, they are with the Government in wanting it at the end of the year.

If you are one of the 1500 please comment about the % of your membership that you were refunded by the MFAA.

I will be off to the FBAA as soon as mine expires.

George September 9, 2009

John you still need evidence of completion of Certificate IV in Financial Services to become an accredited member of FBAA

Paul September 9, 2009

Well thats me over and out,might join one of the banks as a loans clerk.

PB September 9, 2009

What they don’t tell you is how many of the 1500 switched Professional Bodies or simply left the industry.

George, there would be many Brokers who do not wish to step into an advice model and are happy doing what they do now. Will the Diploma allow Brokers to give Advice on Mortgages? I don’t think so, at the end of the day it’s the consumers choice and should always be that way.
Introducing a Diploma will see another 1500 or so leave the industry and the Banks will love it.

Ace September 9, 2009

Oh yes the Cert4 a bit of paper i bought via the mail.

Xerxes September 9, 2009

Anti money laundering course - total joke.
Cert IV - joke.
Diploma - what a laugh.
Licencing - government rort.
MFAA pushed all of these -they are the biggest joke in the broking industry.

I got my pieces of paper as required. None of these improve broker professionalism or ethical standards or service to customers.

I say if lenders simply removed accreditation from all sub standard brokers & the government oversaw & penalised (to the full extent of the law) any illegal broker practices, then the rest of us could be left to get on with business and not be pestered with this time wasting red tape that does nothing to improve the service offered to customers or the professional standards of brokers.

David September 9, 2009

1500 Brokers @ $300/annum means possibly $450,000 in lost revenue for the MFAA. Where is that lost revenue going to be made up from? Be prepared for a fee increase.

John September 9, 2009

I was one of the 1500. Because I ignored and then forgot to send in the cert IV I’ve had since 2006. To MFAA’s credit, they reinstated me within an hour of sending the cert in.

EXCELLENT! September 9, 2009

Good move MFAA as it will hold you in good stead as THE industry’s leading body for setting the highest standards!

Those who whinge and complain are generally those from the bottom of the barrel and are not truly serious about providing the best service for the consumer.

Xerxes September 9, 2009

Excellent!,

Could you please explain your rational as to how a broker getting a Diploma is going to improve their service for the consumer?

If you have a reasonable line of thought to support your statement I’d love to hear it.

Xerxes September 9, 2009

oops,

Rationale.

Grant September 9, 2009

I too am one of the 1500. Having requested a pro-rata refund of my membership fee, I was advised that the Application Form and the Membership Guide state that no pro-rata refunds are applicable. Having pointed out to the MFAA that neither of these documents were provided to me with my membership renewal and therefore it was unreasonable to hold me to those conditions, I again requested a refund.

The silence has been deafening.

Bob Thompson September 10, 2009

I am pleased to be included amongst the “cull of 1,500 brokers” who the MFAA has seen fit to dismiss from their useless association. They have never provided me with any benefit, and in 10 years of broking, not once has a client ever asked me if I was associated with any governing body.

There are many worthy brokers in Australia, and their worth is in no way due to their membership in the MFAA. Mostly they are trustworthy individuals who try and always do the right thing by their clients. The rogues in the industry are probably still members of the MFAA and use the brand as a shield to mask their crafty deals.

The MFAA and lenders try and show the borrowing public that they take stringent steps to make sure that all of their brokers have passed accreditation criteria. This is a farce. Every BDM that ever conducted an accreditation course has always made it an open book exam and if you weren’t sure of the answers, they would give you the correct answers on the spot. When I paid for my Cert IV course, the individual I spoke with told me “no one ever fails, just give me a ring if you have any problems”. So I have now been culled because I haven’t completed one of these farcical courses. I found it impossible to get past the first lesson where I was asked to send copies of two emails which proved I knew how to communicate with clients. Duh!

My client base is modest and they continue to phone me from time to time for refinance or new loans. As I’m no longer accredited with anyone, I still have a means of referring these deals to people and organisations I trust or I simply refer them to deal direct with some of the online lenders who do not use brokers. I’ve gained their trust over the years, not through some bogus accreditation, but through honesty and good service.

Brokers are kidding themselves if they believe that the only way a client can find a good deal is by using a broker. One simple visit to the Your Mortgage or Cannex websites can sort out the best deals in a flash. And since I’m going into early retirement that is exactly what I’ll be telling my clients. I’ll show them how to find the best deals online. If they choose to pay me for that advice fine, if not, that’s OK too. But at least I’ll have the satisfaction in knowing I’ve genuinely helped them.

Wouldn’t it be neat if the 1500 culled brokers got together and called themselves the Culled Brokers Association (CBA). Say each one averaged a database of 100 clients. Then approach one of the online lenders which offer a better product than most lender panels and see if they would be interested in a client base of 150,000 broker customers.

JJ September 10, 2009

Does Naylor have a cert4?
Has he ever worked hands on in the broker/loan market.
The MFAA is all about income to that body $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

BBB September 10, 2009

The cull was needed, we need a minimum standard , as members, all other professional bodies are moving towards a minimum standard.

What is really concerning is the MFAA Education not wanting to recognise as a diploma the Diploma of Mortgage lending issued by the Securities institute ( noe FINsia)as a Diploma they will accept, why because the securities institute education is no lomger a trainging bod y , of course it is not , it was sold by fINSIA to Kaplan , who now say the synergies between the Diploma and their Crttficaute IV are not evident !!!! what ??? ( see page 6 in the national broker magazine - September issue)

TROUBLE IS THE MIAA ( MFAA) recommended the Diploma for yaers as its recognised Doploma for brokers !!!!!It was on thew web site and when I joined the MIAA it was activley promoted to us , what a big mess.

Phil Naylor and the natiopnal board MUST do something about this they have a head in the sand attitude at present , perhaps they would lke to at least refund all the fees ( about $3,000) to the hundreds of us who completed this RECOMMENDED course.

This is fire storm waiting to happen for the national board and it needs to be addressed NOW

NSW John September 10, 2009

I agree with BBB.

Broker in the 'burbs September 10, 2009

When it’s all said & done, if ASIC grant me a licence, irrespective of which formal qualifications I retain, then I couldn’t care less what a trade group says, post national licencing.

But in practical terms, if aggregators insist on cert iv as a minimum standard, whether one is licenced or not, that will really be the issue.

And of course, if banks demand cert iv as a pre-requisite for accreditation, then the writing is really on the wall.

Battle away if you wish, but really, anyone fighting this one, is on a hiding to nothing.

Comment September 10, 2009

It served 2 great purposes for the MFAA - discovering who was still active in the industry and claiming credit for “cleaning out the industry” in an attempt to claw back relevance in the lead up to licencing. Yep, it’s a charade, but I just asked for an extension beforehand and it was no problem. If you want to fight, you have to fight from the inside. Fair dinkum, did anyone expect a refund for not complying with gov’t legislation?

Phil September 10, 2009

If CertIV is so easy and such a joke why doesn’t every one just complete it and get it over and done with rather than whining like a loser! Think you WILL find any broker worth their salt has completed a LONG time ago and I am yet to hear a comment from a winner complaining about any of these simple hurdles.

Following up from another comment above, it would be interesting to know whether Symonds/Naylor and the board has also completed Cert IV and are practicing what they are preaching…

P.S. Bob Thomson (if that is your real name) get a life!

Bob Thompson September 10, 2009

Yes Phil, that’s my real name. My life is fine. Obviously you like compliance……enjoy.

broker in the 'burbs September 10, 2009

I wonder if the AIPB demand Cert IV as a prerequisite for membership?

If not, just wait for their imminent sales pitch…..with the chance to boost numbers, they just might just get out of the starting blocks….but then again, maybe not!!

Phil September 10, 2009

No refund ?? We’ll see about that……. He is an irrelevant idiot. I did certIV and you know what I got tested on - Health and Safety of the workplace. What a *ucking joke. $400 and not even a certificate to prove what I have done. A useless email, its all money grabbing. Same with regulation no benefit to the consumer.

Jase September 10, 2009

Did my certIV as RPL in half an hour at a cost of $220 through my aggregator. All I had to do was show two recently submitted files to see if I new what I was doing. Like to think after 9 years i could get it right.

PB September 11, 2009

Cert IV does about as much for your professionalism as being a member of MFAA….. Nothing. No clients asks for proof you have it or are a member. Getting a Diploma will only create a war between Brokers and Planners….. Bad move

Frank September 11, 2009

Go back to working for the Bank George, not all of us need a computer to tell us how to do a loan and the ones you call cowboys are the ones that do the loans you cant set.

I am with Xerxes and well said to Bob.

The MFAA spends bugger all on marketing and does the public really give a hoot whether their broker is a member…no

I bet a years trail that you could stand in the middle of Sydney and ask every person walking past who the MFAA is and what they do and unless they are in the industry not one of them will have any idea.

I bought Cert 4 off the internet too for $350 that will make me more professional…not

MFAA Fan - not September 11, 2009

Well I did my Cert IV over a year ago and still got booted out!!! Now I have to grovel for reinstatement. Yay.

Jason September 11, 2009

As long as the MIAA (or any industry body for that matter) keeps getting rid of the bottom dwellers then they are doing a good job for me as only the positive and most professional will remain. If Cert 4 was sooooo easy then why are their still 100’s that have not completed…? Yeah I know there will be a lame excuse of “I just don’t wanna” or “I couldn’t see the value”. Grab your fore-finger and thumb and place an “L” sign up to your forehead… L-O-S-E-R…!

Comment September 11, 2009

Hang on, we know its a bit farcical, but it’s not the end of the world - and I see George’s point as well as BBB’s re the certification. Give Phil a call & discuss BBB, he answers his phone and gave the number out at the MFAA info day. And just the same as nobody in the middle of sydney might know the MFAA, none of them care either if we have to pay $400 for a certificate. So if its make or break, then better to break now. Many small businesses have to carry stock, cope with bad debts, pay huge insurance costs and can go bankrupt from high overheads - but we as brokers aren’t exposed to that. Just because my doctor has a practicing certificate, that doesn’t make him a better doctor, but I’m glad he has one. Does anyone stop to think that onlookers (maybe even potential clients) are reading this site to see how professional brokers are coping with this change? I wonder what their opinion would be?

Xerxes September 11, 2009

IMO the issue is not whether the standard for brokers should be cert IV or diploma or degree.

I’m a broker and ultimately I’ll jump through whatever hoops are presented to continue my business (to a point). Hopefully ASIC don’t build in too much red tape (though I fear they will).

For me the issue is why does the MFAA exist? The only reason most brokers joined the MFAA/MIAA is the MIAA was a hoop we had to jump through (enforced by aggregators and lenders).

For my assessment, the best future for the MFAA would be to stand as a voice for the broker. Represent the interests of brokers. Let ASIC set legal requirements & training levels for brokers under licencing regime.

The MFAA seem to have ostracised many of its 13,000, sorry, 11,500 brokers. There seems to be very bad blood & resentment. I personally can’t stand the MFAA.

Why not build up some good will with brokers. Then within the MFAA, if they want to have a platinum class of diploma or university trained brokers with a pretty certificate to go with it, sure go for it. But the MFAA should focus on getting good publicity for brokers, speaking out for broker rights, representing its 11,500 paying members (11,500 X $395 = $4,542,500). Without brokers the MFAA would not exist (they seem to have forgetten this).

I say the MFAA should stop plotting to put more & more impediments to our business (leave that to ASIC) and start speaking up for brokers.

TBONES September 11, 2009

XERXES, i usually read your posts with mixed feelings as they are not always (IMO Only) level-headed! Howvere, i would like to commend you on your post above re the MFAA and resentment by its members! I can’t say i don’t agree with you 100%!

I too will do what i need to do, but still can’t get my head around what the MFAA/FBAA do to receive our hard earned $$$$! I have resisted joining either to date, because i just do now want my money wasted! I have better things to do with it such as taking my good clients out which in turn will obtain me more business etc etc…

I note with interest yesterday that CBA are stating that to retain accrediation with them, you will need to have a C-IV (what a joke), and be a member of MFAA?! What about licencing? Surely that must hold more significance than MFAA membership that i have never been asked about EVER by any of my clients and/or potential clients!

Re the Cert IV, yes, what a joke!! I submitted under RPL, and a requirement was a copy of a recently submitted file - so thinking that i would demonstarte 9 years of full time experience in the Broking industry, i called and advised that the file to be used is waaaaaay to thick due to its complexities - what should i do? The response?! Wait for it! ‘Haven’t you got a SIMPLE application that you can submit?’!!! WTF!!! This highlighted what a joke the whole exercise was!!

Good luck all - i fear we may need it!

Peter the Broker September 14, 2009

Wow, I just read through the comments on this article and I’ve got to say brokers are their worst enemies. Seems this industry is full of people who could only be termed whingers. Be pro-active guys you never know you might even find yourselves writing more business.

I fully support the MFAA, fee is nominal and I really don’t find their requirements too onerous, in fact I hope they toughen the guidelines even further and rid us of you mob.

Tony September 14, 2009

I agree with Peter.

If you guys don’t agree with the MFAA requirements, then leave the MFAA and, if you feel that strongly about not getting your Cert IV, then leave the industry, because there will definitely be minimum education requirements moving forward.

Put quite simply — “either piss or get off the pot”

Peter September 14, 2009

All those brokers who believe they are better off not having their Cert IV and thus not being a member of the MFAA will find that as soon as National Regulation comes in they will not have careers in the mortgage broking business any more. Its OK though as it appears they know everything anyway so they shouldn’t have any problems getting another job!

Xerxes September 14, 2009

To Tony & Peter

There are very few active brokers without Cert IV. In my network of broking associates I don’t know one. A quick flick through the posts above & there appears to be maybe one.

But can I ask you both. Do you think you offer better service to your customers as a consequence of completing Cert IV?

It’s not that we think we are better off without Cert IV. It’s simply that our businesses & our customers are not better off due to us having completed Cert IV. We’ve all got cert IV, but cannot see the benefit of it.

This is at the heart of many good & professional brokers concerns. We’ll jump through the hoops (to a point) but who is actually gaining anything from these (seemingly without benefit) hoops?

Cert IV & RPL for longer term brokers meant only a slight inconvenience. Akin to a mosquito bite (we copped it and got on with our businesses).

My thoughts relate to why the MFAA is pushing for more hurdles (Diploma) for experienced brokers. For many of us brokers with long term businesses, the thought that we may forced to enroll in some college or TAFE to gain a diploma to educate us as to how to run our businesses (which many of us have been successfully running for well over a decade) is galling.

I don’t want the MFAA pushing & spruiking for Diploma level education, especially for experienced mortgage brokers. I would like the MFAA to instead focus on representing brokers in a positive fashion. A novelty might even be the MFAA speaking up for its 11,500 brokers.

Leave regulation, minimum education standards & licencing requirements to ASIC.

It seems as if the MFAA is feeling somewhat lost as the industry moves from self regulation to Federal government regulation run by ASIC. The MFAA seems determined to continue & expand self regulation (a redundancy once government regulation commences).

As I mentioned in an earlier post, if the MFAA wants some shiny, platinum class of higher educated diploma or degree trained broker they should have a separate shiny class of MFAA broker (call it MFAA platinum member) with a certificate (which they will no doubt sell) to boot. But don’t insist on all 11,500 of us sitting through some mindless TAFE course in order for us to maintain MFAA membership.

Broker in the 'burbs September 15, 2009

And that’s exactly what the MFAA are doing.

The point of ‘minimum’ education standards is not about enhancing an experienced brokers capabilities (particularly obtaining Cert IV via RPL), it is about protecting and lifting the perceived professionalsm of the MFAA brand (and it’s members) as far as consumers and regulators see it.

It (minimum education standards) is also about ensuring new entrants (who may have no industry background) have a minimum education standard to equip them (irrespective of how efficacious the course is) to function in the industry proper.

Diploma standards will no doubt lead to the granting of industry post nominals, similarly to the accountancy and Financial Planning industries’ CPA & CFP standards as examples. Both CPA’s & CFP’s are only offered by trade organisations, not regulators, to give consumers some confidence when selecting & dealing with a ‘professional’ and avoiding no hopers. Non professionals won’t get these professional marks, by simply paying an annual fee. They will have to demonstrate their ‘all round’ capacity, including education minima.

Now if that means mandatory education minima, then so be it.

This measure implemented by the MFAA is not something that has been sprung on members and particularly for ‘experienced’ brokers, obtaining the Cert IV by RPL, as Xerxes says, it is a mere administrative process.

And for those that know everything there is to know in the industry, yes the Cert IV ‘course’ is very basic, but the industry has to start somewhere. Would you prefer an MBA standard.

I have many gripes about some lenders as well as some industry commentators with their inane rhetorical puffery that seems to pervade industry blogs & mags lately, but on the minimum education issue; this is simply a vital measure in growing our industry as perceived by consumers & ,from a backyard cottage industry to a professional and ‘well respected’ industry.

Nick September 15, 2009

Doesn’t the MFAA constitution require that 70% of its elected representative be brokers? Fantastic chance for some people here who obviously have plenty of time and energy, and represent 13000 members, mostly brokers. It’s a golden opportunity …. unless you are just happy to sound all concerned and really do nothing. I wonder.