Aggregators: PLAN’s Ray Hair slams the conspiracy theory that banks are out to destroy the broker industry

Ray Hair, CEO of Plan AustraliaBy Jill Fraser for Lending Central

In our continuing series on aggregators PLAN Australia CEO Ray Hair told Lending Central that a win/win situation between banks and brokers is possible. But first the conspiracy theory that banks are working against brokers has to be debunked.

“There is clearly a perception within the broker industry that banks are either favouring the branch network and/or the direct channel over indirect,” says Hair.

“This has been born out of history - a lot of brokers are ex-bankers who worked in banks when they were less broker friendly and continue to project this historical perspective - plus the fact that the marketing arms of all banks are trying to drive customers through branches.”

But banks pushing for effective and efficient branches does not automatically mean wanting to eliminate the broker channel, he says.

Hair believes that some brokers have developed a persecution complex.

He admits it’s “tough being a broker right now” but says that the bottom line is that it serves banks to retain their broker channel and the notion that they want to cripple it is baseless.

Following a recent CBA boardroom luncheon held for the heads of aggregators Hair says he walked away “with a clear view as to the CBA’s level of optimism for the future”.

“The CBA wants to be in the broker market and grow this channel and I’m hearing this from all lenders,” he says.

“You’ve only got to look at the volumes to know that banks couldn’t cope if they didn’t have a healthy, quality, efficient broker channel.”

He notes that a year ago 90% of PLAN’s settlements were spread across 20 lenders. Today 80% goes to around nine lenders.

“This concentration of volume into players who didn’t expect it and weren’t staffed up for it has led to changed credit policies and maximum LVRs etc, which means as a broker you’re now seeing the goal posts shift.

“Even when an application is in the pipeline changes can be applied to it despite the fact that it was submitted under the ‘old rules’. All this is extremely frustrating for brokers and naturally after a while they start to feel persecuted,” says Hair.

He says aggregators need to hold lenders accountable for their internal processes, work with lenders on the technology aspect (ensure that straight-through processing is being delivered) and push lenders to acknowledge that it’s a two way street.

Brokers, he says, need to concentrate on “what they can control and influence”, which he says is all about quality and efficiency.

Asked if he thinks that aggregators hold enough power to put pressure on the majors Hair says, “a natural aspect of any commercial relationship is that the balance of power ebbs and flows”.

“Right now the banks are in a stronger position, whereas two years ago the banks were falling over themselves for the broker market”.

PLAN urges its brokers not to concentrate exclusively on the majors because the lack of competition will not only hurt consumers it will also hurt them.

“We’ve seen a flight to quality and safety,” he says. “People got burned with RAMS and GE so they don’t trust the non-bank sector in terms of its longevity and sustainability.

“That’s not to say that the nonbanks are not reliable and dependable.  It’s simply the perception.”

Regarding the issue of accreditation schemes Hair maintains that the issue is not volume but quality.

He says banks claim that there is a strong correlation between poor quality applications and a level of re-work and therefore cost associated with relatively low volume brokers, and the accreditation schemes are designed to weed out sub-standard quality.

PLAN Australia is currently in discussion with the majors about this matter. Its proposition is to put together a training program to ensure that PLAN brokers retain their accreditations by keeping up to date with credit policies and processes without needing to meet the volume criteria.

“What the lenders are saying is, you’ve now got to raise the bar again,” says Hair.

“Am I supportive of lenders cutting accreditations. No, I’m not. What I am supportive of is improving quality and the efficiency of the industry because our future viability depends on this.

“If aggregators can put together a process that says that their (respective) members meet this quality criteria then there is every reason to expect that accreditations will be maintained.

“The challenge is to find a solution that works for both parties. It has to be a two way street; a win/win situation.”

Asked if he thinks that the grievances currently being directed towards aggregators are justified he muses the point before suggesting that “a lot of those making the noise are smaller players (aggregators) whose viability is at risk”.

“They’re trying to make people see that large aggregation groups are not necessarily providing the solutions.”

Regarding the issue of agreements between aggregators and lenders and the level of suspicion that abounds surrounding these, Hair calmly announces that PLAN Australia’s members are privy to all agreements that the aggregator has with lenders.

“When a broker signs with PLAN Australia they sign up to the terms of all our lender agreements therefore we make our lender agreements available to our members.

“If an agreement stipulates that the terms are confidential we go back to the lender and say that’s not acceptable, we have to disclose this to our members.

“Lenders are not saying don’t share this information.  If aggregators choose not to do so that’s either because there is something to hide or there’s a belief that it’s a commercial agreement and shouldn’t be made public.”

57 Comments

Ray Montey June 24, 2009

I have just read with interest Ray Hair’s comments on Banks trying to dismantle the broker network.

One only has to look at the banks actions to confirm this viewpoint. Ray Hair has his head in the sand or elsewhere. Of course he wouldn’t have a vested interest in saying otherwise (sic).

As to the brokers presenting poorly prepared proposals the banks only have themselves to blame. For years they have allowed anybody who wanted to call themselves brokers into the industry. I know of people who were car salesman, hair dressers, carpenters one day and brokers the next. It is the banks who decided that these people could become accredited - nobody else was responsible as they and they alone have the power to determine whom they will deal with.

In addition, I find that I as an ex banker with 30yrs experience constantly questioning poor processes, and being required to offer over the phone training to the banks’ processing staff because their staff simply have no idea. The CBA is the worst offender to the extent that I now decline any borrowers that wish to deal through this organisation. Simply more hassle than it is worth.

The banks can thank themselves they are a protected species because if the government removed the onerous exit fees imposed by the second tier banks and non bank lenders the market would shift significantly. KRudd has promised it so hopefully it is to arrive soon. That is of course unless the banks use the financial muscle to bury it.

I am sure we all await with interest.

Regards
Ray Montey
Regards

Mac June 24, 2009

You are being fooled by the Banks Ray.
It is scary that someone in your position is so naive.
Ray the reality is very different.

This week I have had the following experience; For the same applicant,
1. Through the branch channel, issued a full ‘conditional’ in 5 hrs.
2. Through the broker channel, 4 days, and it hasn’t even been looked at. They’re estimated time to ‘conditional’ was 9 days.

Same applicant. Same deal.

Not a conspiracy ?? Yeah Right.

Wake up to yourself Ray. It Banks VS Brokers. And the eveidence is everywhere.

We may see you with a nice job in one of the major Banks very shortly, would be my guess.

John Van Dowlen June 24, 2009

I happen to meet a CBA branch manager at an open house and I complained to him how my CBA loan submitted with a broker is taking too long. He said to ditch the broker and come into the branch directly as CBA deal with direct business first and broker’s loans after and that if all is well he can get my loan approved within 2-3 days!

KeyChange June 24, 2009

Sorry Ray but as your role is the middleman between the banks and the brokers your perception is tinted, if not tainted. The banks are moving against brokers in a very well planned and executed strategy. Each taking their turn to tighten the screws.

They and their media stooges cultivated the ‘dodgy broker’ stereotype that has seen the introduction of ridiculous anti-broker regulation such as the FBC. They have introduced split channel pricing and processing levels. They have slashed commissions and imposed idiotic metrics on those commissions. Now they plan to cull on quantity and what’s to stop them from raising that bar over the next few years to an extent where a broker’s panel consists of four lenders… or less.

Banks are using the quality catchcry at the moment. Many of these same lenders have online policy and product documents that are either out of date or so vague as to be useless. They offer us BDM’s who don’t return calls and 30 minute plus delays on broker hotlines.. Do we get bonus commissions when their service levels fall, when they lose documents or send them to the wrong recipient…no. We get shafted each step of the way.

Grant June 24, 2009

To Ray Hair, you lost me at “The CBA wants to be in the broker market”.

Paul June 24, 2009

Sorry Ray

I worked as a senior exec for a major formulating policy in respect to the broker channel a few years ago.

We acknowledged the growth in the broker channel and thus formulated a strategy to ensure that we at least obtained system growth in that segment (ie if our overall market share of home loans was 20% - then we wanted no more than 20% of the broker generated home loans).

The bottomline however was that we made less from broker generated home loans and most importantly we no longer owned the customer which mitigated our opportunity to retain and also to entangle via cross sell of other bank products. In short - we were very reluctant participants in this market.

Although back then we could not formulate any strategy to rid the market of the broker channel - we spent many hours thinking of ways to limit the market share of brokers.

Such strategies included restricting broker acess to our most competitive products, manipulating service standards to favour our own bankers etc.

I sat in front of numerous broker group heads making all sorts of positive noises about how we wanted to support them and then would return to the office and spend hours on strategy trying to slow our growth in the broker segment.

The world has now changed - the broker market is weak - and this is the opportunity that the majors have been waiting for to put the broker market to the sword. Brokers of course will never disappear - but the strategy of the majors will be to slow its resurgence to the greatest extent that they can.

Aggregator and brokers need to understand - you are major bank competitors (not business partners!!) That is not to say that competitors cannot work together for a common profit objective - but the basis of that relationship should always be predicated on a common mistrust.

Aggregators had the opportunity when controlling significant loan volumes to lever the majors into contractual arrangements around commissions, service standards and availability of home loan funding. This opportunity has been lost and the majors now have the upper hand.

If Banks can be trusted as business partners - then why does every major corporation in Australia lock in its future funding for up to 3-5 years in advance (via written contract).

Business is about balancing competition and cooperation for the maximum profit outcome for your stakeholders. Brokers are the aggregator stake holders and it the aggregators primary responsibility to ensure that our best interests are served.

This is not to say that broker / major bank relationships need to be hostile but it is naive to say that banks are our partners, can be trusted or believed. It is safer to assume the opposite and to negotiate accordingly.

Derek Miles June 24, 2009

Here, Here. We have aggregator executives working at one level and the broker working at the other level and never the twain shall meet. I have been a broker for 15 years and all during that time the major lenders paid lip service to the so called “partnership in business”. And nothing changes. We have lurched from one crisis to another over 15 years all with the same outcomes - that is, the brokers are delivered poor service (or more bluntly, our clients are treated with disdain). I pride myself in the quality of not only the client that I deal with but the level of work that I put into each deal to make the life of the assessor as easy as I can - but to no avail. It still takes major lenders 2 to 3 weeks to approve a loan even when everything is there and all submissions are done electronically. So I don’t beleive that the lenders will change anything for the broker channel and they will continue to whinge about the quality of business they get from the broker channel as a diversionery measure to cover up their own shortcomings and lack of investment in their business. For goodness sake, in the old days they had to deal with and interview many customers well outside the scope of business they were prepared to write which required considerable resources - they want everything on a platter and they are still not happy. Yes, there are some brokers who don’t take the same care as I do, so why don’t they rank brokers and give those who do take the care with better service. It’s not that hard you would think. But the lenders insist that there is a correlation between volume of submissions with quality of submissions. They are obviously wrong.

Brett June 24, 2009

Ok Ray your comments are so pathetic they are not only stupid, but offensive. The fact that you can publicly express this view, I find as a broker insulting. No wonder you aggregators are useless and will soon be irrelevant. Branch loans get approved in hours, lending criteria is different and settlements are on time. How about the fact that I have had two declined deals this week and the lenders ring the client direct telling them to go to a branch and it will be approved with a better rate!! How about 3 clients coming off fixed rates, getting better interest rates from banks ringing them direct than I can through the broker channel. No conspiracy theory BULLSH*IT!!

Rick June 24, 2009

Why do all the aggregators have this love affair with the major banks?? It certainly does not endear them to brokers and frankly I don’t think the major banks care one way or the other???

Surely not all of these aggregator senior execs are stupid or naive??

There must be a strategy behind it - but what is it???

Cameron June 24, 2009

Ray, you are kidding yourself and good luck getting your Plan brokers to believe that load of rubbish. The Majors dropped their commission rates and all you had to say was how lucky we are that we can now sell their insurance etc to get back to the near the amount that we were earning before, thanks for that. The banks are going to speed the process up by letting us submit the deals on line, oh thankyou for that too as we need more work again for less money and really want to save the bank employing loan processing staff. Forget the old bankers having the attitude its us the brokers (your clients) which have a problem and with your head in the sand as someone said how are you earning the skim of our money that you currently take? Do a Survey and listen to your clients (us brokers)and try asking real non leading questions to get to the truth. CBA should be cut from the broker network as I lot of us joined aggregators to have a wide panel and if lender hurdles are comming I dont see the point in giving you 20% of my money (YES MY MONEY) for nothing. I was under the impression that you were there to assist brokers not assist the funders in shafting us. You do have a strange attitude as if there is no us there is no you. How about they guarantee their service quality and give us .1 for each call not returned, .1 for each time they request an additional item that is already in the file and another .1 for each time they decline an application after 3 weeks based on something that was highlighted in the cover letter on the application. Then we would be getting back to a good commission level. If you cant see what is happening what hope do your PLAN brokers have?

Acid test June 24, 2009

CBA are introducing a volume based re-accreditation scheme in which you have to write 4 deals and settle at least 3 in a 6 month period. If you don’t, it will cost you $500 to sit a re-accreditation (no way that represents the cost to CBA, let alone if they do group accreditations)There are a few serious implications. Firstly if CBA service, product, policy and/or pricing is crap for a period then we should be able to vote with our feet until they improve. Under this new scheme, it may entice a broker to write a handful of deals with CBA even if they don’t think it is the best option for the client - just to stay accredited. Secondly if all the lenders (including the ones outside the big 4) followed suit we would be forced to reduce our panel of lenders or be copping a huge cost to keep our full panel. It all seems like anti-competition to me. If they honestly want our business there must be a better way CBA can encourage higher quality submissions.

John June 24, 2009

We have oligopoly market conditions (basically 4-5 lenders that attarct 90% of business)and we have visible costs (upfront and trail). Market power sits with the lenders for the above reason. If they wiped out brokers tomorrow, all it would mean is the branches would be a little over capacity. So what if the service is poor, what alternative do customers have?!? What value do we add to the lender. I’ve been in thebranches where they have been able to process loan apps in 30 minutes and agree on the val despite the fact there is LMI. We don’t have a business model anymore and we are on borrowed time. User pay is the only way forward

John June 24, 2009

ps some on is on the take here, Hair you’ve just shown your hand!

Xerxes June 24, 2009

Paul’s comments are bang on perfect. Ray how could you not know this?

Attack process:

Step 1: Infiltrate the broker body (MFAA) & put it out of business as a voice for brokers

Step 2: Buy off the aggregators with PD sponsorship money and other goodies (stop aggregators working in the best interest of brokers)

Step 3: Reduce broker commissions by 30%

Step 4: Reduce service to broker customers whilst adding extra resources to branch credit processing (thereby creating a market distortion & discrediting the broker industry). Reducing competition.

Step 5: Lobby government & industry bodies (funny that the MFAA was gunning so hard for this) to push for greater restrictions and licencing of brokers (ensure legislation is written such that red tap for mortgage broking is increased with no real benefit to customers).

Step 6 Commence imposing volume targets & quality metrics on individual brokers (segmenting the broker market and reducing competition). Further reducing competition.

Step 7: Only offer best service & products & LVR’s to brokers who effectively exclusively use only one lender & thereby make broker’s quasi employees. Further reducing competition.

Step 8: Push the broker industry towards fee for service (so that commissions can be reduced towards Zero & customers further encouraged to go direct to branches). Further reducing competition.

Game over!

There are probably numerous other steps I have missed out on. But you get the picture.

Thanks again for the interview Jill. The thing that really ticks me off is that every aggregator boss you have interviewed seems to either not realise what is going on in the industry or worse, they do realise and don’t have the guts to make a stand for brokers.

TJ June 24, 2009

Strewth Ray, if you wanted a clean out you are going the right way about it!!

Soon to be ex Plan broker June 24, 2009

Ray,just remember your boss and owners are one of the biggest non bank lenders in the country (Challenger). I don’t know why you continue to defend the actions of the major banks, when you should be the voice for your other paying member..i would suspect that you would earn more from your cut of broker comms than the sponsorhip dollars you receive from CBA and teh like…so do what WE pay you for and be our voice ……

TJ June 24, 2009

I find the need to do a follow up……

When I joined PLAN, their culture was welcoming to all Brokers, big and small and they were particular about the quality of the person. As someone who never intended to produce large volume I took much comfort in that welcoming attitude, I was and continue to accept that my loan quality had to be above average and that re-works were only costing me money.

Ray, times haven’t changed, you have. Let’s compare PLAN 2009 to PLAN 2000. No comparison. I still get my loans the same way, numbers up a bit, still don’t submit unless I am sure it’ll go through.

Big difference is, I am doing most of the work of the lender, getting paid 30% less to deal with completely incompetent halfwits that are only looking after their own backsides. Any lender that wants me to cross sell still doesn’t get my business and I am looking for a new home!!!!!

wayne June 24, 2009

Wake up Ray. Had to get a 95% lend FHOG deal formally approved with Suncorp in 7 days. Broker deal had 16 day turnaround time, went to branch and they did it in 4 days. Of course, giving it to the Branch meant we earned NO commission. at least our customer was happy, so was Suncorp, so was real estate agent, so was vendor. Who lost - the broker - oh, of couse, so did the aggregator.

Another soon to be ex Plan broker June 24, 2009

I can only echo many of the comments above. For the 20% of our money that you receive we expect, both an efficient service from the aggregator AND effective representation to lenders.

With cuts in our commission, combined with loss of business, caused by highly un-ethical conduct from banks, Plan and other aggregators need to find some backbone and stand up for their members.

The recent experience for brokers is that banks are doing their very best to drive us out of business, by blatantly providing appalling service to the broker channel, while providing relatively good service to their branch originated applicants.

By example: an application that took over three week, to be looked at by a major bank, when lodged correctly and electronically, was assessed by a numbnut that was incapable of reading the submission notes, who then requested documents that were supplied in the original parcel. Finally the assessor requested later pay slips, because the process has taken so long and then the application was declined on spurious grounds

To add insult to injury, when the client took exactly the same completed application (I photocopied the original)and supporting documentation to his local branch of the same bank, his loan was approved within 6 hours.

Almost exactly the same scenario as occured with another major three weeks earlier.

And do not get me started on clawback, incurred when clients move because banks treat them appalingly, or re-writing the loan, to something that the client did not ask for!

So where is the evidence that there is no conspiracy, Ray?

Disgusted Plan broker June 24, 2009

Ray you should be ashamed of yourself, i have been a PLan broker for many 5 years and have paid you thousands in commission, it insults me and my collegues to hear you defending the banks and suggesting that there is not a conspiracy to get rid or at least make life diificult for brokers.

Read what Paul has to say, THAT is the Banks true position, not the rubbish they feed you when they wine and dine you.

Just remember who pays your wages the brokers NOT the Banks…

Concerned home loan hunter June 24, 2009

I don’t get why so many people are crying about the article above and also the previous aggregator articles that Jill wrote. It seems to be the same complaints over and over again and I don’t get it - maybe I’m missing something?

I’ve been looking for a new loan and my broker has been fantastic to me. I don’t have time or the knowledge to look through the sheer number of different home loans that are being advertised but from the complaints above, now I’m beginning to think that maybe my broker is just out for himself, rather than for me.

I can understand some of the comments above eg from Wayne and having to get a loan done in 7 days sounds pretty quick. (I didn’t know that could be done by the way!)

The Plan guy says “PLAN urges its brokers not to concentrate exclusively on the majors because the lack of competition will not only hurt consumers it will also hurt them.” Everyone above keeps saying that the Banks are out to get brokers because they’ve cut their commissions, but I have to ask - who are the brokers out for? Do we get recommended to go with the banks because the brokers get paid the most there and that now that they’re not getting paid as much there is uproar? What about the non-banks as Ray says? Do they have better products for us? If so, why wouldn’t we be recommended those loans?

Am I missing something here, but if the banks don’t have the best loans, then why recommend them to us? Is it because they pay the best? I know I wouldn’t go to the banks if my broker tells me that a better loan for me is available through a non-bank, but from the comments above this doesn’t seem to happen?

Regards,

Confused.

Savvy Investor June 24, 2009

Hi All,

Like yourselves we are very angry at the one sided nature of the changes in the finance market, but Ray and other aggregators realise that biting the hand that feeds you is also not a smart business model.

Excluding majors from the panel would only make our clients suspect we are focusing on our commissions and not their best interests. Imagine if a client asks why the CBA product was not presented as an option to them even though it was a better fit for their needs and you have to tell them it was simply because it was not on your panel or some similarly lame excuse. Open hostility and aggression just leads to retaliation in kind and achieves nothing (do you really feel better?).

We need to work together with other brokers and our aggregators to find a way to have the Banks favour our business model over their own (I have shown copious ways that we are cheaper and more effective in other posts on this site). If their stated issue is quality then rather than tell them that is BS, have an independent body judge the quality from random samplings and report (much as the shadow shopper program does) and once that issue is put to bed (as the lie I know it to be) then let them try another tack.

We know we are better and cheaper - we just need to prove it objectively. Our aggregators are feeling the pain in reduced volumes and income, just as we are. Unlike us, they have to continue working with the Banks directly to ensure we have access to Bank funding and products (whilst looking also for alternative channels for us). I can imagine it is not all beer and skittles for them being hit from both ends. They need to be approachable and open to suggestions (as Ray has proven to be) and they can not be seen to be favoring one side over the other.

KeyChange June 24, 2009

Hey Confused Concerned home loan hunter - I am not surprised you are confused in fact you might even be a split personality one part of you thinks your are confused and the other works for someone with an interest in asking questions like “who are the brokers out for?

Erving June 24, 2009

Ray, rather than being born from the long ago history of some ex-bankers, the current rage is born of the frustration caused by our experiences of the last few weeks and months.

The sorry facts are:

- Banks ARE favouring their branches over broker originated applications.
- Banks incompetence is causing brokers a lot of extra work, but unlike the banks, we do not gain additional commission points.
- Banks communication with brokers about the status and progress of an application is appalling.
- Banks are routinely late in settling loans.
- Banks have cut our income, both by reducing the commission rate and strangling our ability to be efficient lodgers of applications (see above).
- Banks rewrite our clients loans to a different product, without having the honesty to advise the client of ALL the implications of the change, and then claw back our commission.

All these things impact, not only on the broker, but also on the aggregator, so why are you not concerned about the future of your business model, because you should be.

Aggregators need to grow some intestinal fortitude and represent, much more effectively, the interests of their broker members. After all you are our conduit to the banks!!

Concerned home loan hunter June 24, 2009

Hi Keychange,

I work in advertising and am in the process of looking for a new loan through my broker, so yes I have to ask that question. If my broker was simply out for himself and recommended that the bank loan was the best option, then with all the complaining above, why wouldn’t I go direct to the bank?

On the other hand, for me personally I’m not going to do that as I know the broker i’m dealing with is looking out for me first and himself second, but the questions that I asked in my previous comment still stand.

I just read Erving’s post and if this was the sort of service that I was getting anywhere in any industry, I wouldn’t go back to that place. So why do you?

Xerxes June 24, 2009

To concerned home loan hunter,

Thanks for your comments.

From what you have said, sounds as if your broker (like most experienced brokers) is very good and offering you good service.

To put your mind at rest you can be confident the majors are not offering better commissions (in fact often the smaller lenders offer slightly more attractive commissions). Though I don’t know a broker who would offer their customer a worse loan option in order to get 5-10% better pay. Good business is looking after your customer (as your broker appears to be doing for you).

Ray recommends brokers offer a wider choice to their customers in order to ensure more competition in the market place. If 3 or 4 lenders have 80% or greater of the market (as is the case presently) competition will decline and everyone loses (Home loan customers especially).

During the GFC customers were gravitating towards the majors. Over the last 9 months brokers have got in the habbit of offering the majors to their customers & this has contributed to the big lender monopoly. Brokers need to return to offering a wider choice to their customers (in order to maintain a healthy market place).

Ray has taken a lot of criticism (including from me) but this is good advice from him.

And in answer to your question. Who are the brokers out for? We brokers certainly need to make a living. But myself and all brokers I am personally aquainted with (and based on wider sentiment the vast majority of brokers) are very much looking after the best interests of our customers. Happy customers is the key to a healthy business.

Greg June 24, 2009

Dear, Dear Savvy. You poor misguided soul.

Excluding majors from my panel gave me credibility and trust from my customers. Quite simply I do ask my prospect to choose, if they want cheap and nasty go with the CBA or NAB or one of the bully boys.

If they want differentiation, focused, choice, no third party enforcement, continued two way loyalty and specialised service then come with a broker. The bully boys won’t discount because you go direct they just keep the commission for themselves, no reduction in fees or interest.
Also Savvy, my clients know I earn commisssion because I declare it and they expect a return on that commission, therefore I don’t let them down with poor assessment and approval/settlement times, if the job can be done within their wishes it will be done through the lenders I choose to use. Not by leneders that end up shafting both of us. I also promise them that they will not be harrassed by bank staff trying to peddle their other crap to them every other day.

So yeh, let’s work together……..

No behind the back tactics, no Judas tactics. no sucking one another in and then changing the rules, no bending over for a “Pretty Please”…..

Brokers are there to negotiate or Broker an application on behalf of the customer. As long as we declare who we choose not to deal with and who we do choose to deal with and why then then we will be around forever. And I for one am happy to declare commission levels as one of those reasons.

Concerned home loan hunter June 24, 2009

Thanks for the explanation Xerxes!

I can certainly understand the need to make a living as you say and I’m happy for my broker to do so - He’s been working pretty hard to find a good deal for me, so it’s worth every penny.

I guess the concern can come from above when all it seems to be is bank bashing, and focusing on the bad, not on alternatives to help us out. I know when my parents were getting a new loan about 8 or so years back they said that there was heaps to choose from, now it doesn’t seem to be as much. I guess as you say the financial crisis has people going to the banks, but some of the articles here and other news places are saying that we’re going to be out of that soon. Shouldn’t that mean a return of competition?

Also, as I mentioned if the service is soooo bad as you guys are saying, why do they get used? Surely the financial crisis isn’t forcing people to go the banks?

Erving June 24, 2009

To Concerned Home Loan Hunter. I have recommended major banks, which lead to receiving the above mentioned service, because that recommendation was by far the best deal for my client.

Often though, the better arrangement for the client, is with a non-bank lender.

The reason I, like most brokers keep our clients, is that we put their best interests first. It is indeed unfortunate, that banks policies are driving us to a position of not being able to provide a completely professional service, in their short term drive for market dominance

Xerxes June 24, 2009

To concerned,

Hopefully you are right and we will return to full & healthy competition soon. Unfortunately many of the smaller lenders have been bought by the majors (bankwest, RAMS, Aussie, Wizard etc) & many others have either gone out of business or into hybernation.

I think it is likely brokers will lead the next wave of market competition.

I agree with you, it is a little puzzling why many brokers continue to recommend the majors (almost exclusively) when their service is so bad. I have done my best to keep clear of the majors. However sometimes we need to use a major (due to a credit or policy issues) to get our customers the loan they need.

Ken Bruns and most of you are missing the point! June 24, 2009

President Lincoln (a man who understood conflict if any one ever did) once said that the biggest problem with most arguments was that tended to generate heat but very little light.
So it would seem here.
If there is a conspiracy then what exactly is the use of just carrying on about it like this? We are only making ourselves angry for no benefit. Why would you not consider some action that might do some good?
We as a commercial group have muscle too! It may be spread across more parties than with the lenders, but with some effort and coordination we CAN actually do things rather than just wail and gnash our teeth.
How many of you remember for instance the days when the CBA made it perfectly clear that they would never entertain the idea of using brokers? I had no problem with that at the time by the way, I thought that was their point of difference and they were entitled to it, but they came around didn’t they.
We can do the same thing again. I will monitor this thread for a few days and if there seems to be enough genuine motivation I will try to set up a method that can act as a catalyst for some change.
Brokers It’s up to you.

KeyChange June 24, 2009

Fire can also provide light and you need heat to maintain a fire so let’s not pour sand on the embers just yet. Yes I am all in favour of ’some action’ and sure our anger is born of frustration. But we have nowhere to rally we are disparate group reliant on the aggregators and an association who have at best split loyalty between us and the lenders.

Those who argue ‘take the business elsewhere’ must be walking a very fine line in terms of representing their clients best interest. I want to support lenders such as Firstmac but they haven’t won my confidence and so how can I honestly recommend them.

We poured all our efforts into supporting Heritage and they couldn’t cope and withdrew product. I have several clients on mothballs waiting for Heritage to come back. AMP could have been a contender but stopped running. Suncorp are here today and gone tomorrow. There is now talk of ING being sold to ANZ.

The industry (not just brokers) is faced with a complete collapse in competition and no one who matters appears to give damn. Maybe Ray Hair is right, it’s not a conspiracy because I am not sure the big banks are that clever, but they certainly are ruthless enough to take full advantage of their opportunity. Without a united voice we are sunk – time we looked back to the era of Abe Lincoln but not to America – maybe now is a time for a Brokers Guild… back to the future.

Cameron June 25, 2009

Assuming that you are tracking this Mr Hair how about a comment addressing the concerns of your members on here. We are your clients and an unhappy client goes elsewhere. Aggregators grow on trees and there are better options out there so thankyou for the motivation for me to explore them.

A June 25, 2009

I would be very interested to hear who IS happy with their aggregator and why.
I have been following this thread along with the other 2 previous threads and it appears that we are all unhappy with our aggregator no matter who it is.
Are they not all the same with perhaps the only difference being the cut in commissions and what software they provide???
The only reason we needed to have an aggregator was to get around the minimum lending criteria. However now these restrictions are being enforced anyway by the banks. So why do we need to have an aggregator???

Blake June 25, 2009

* Comment Removed *

KeyChange June 25, 2009

We need a forum to discuss this and our options so I have just registered the domain http://www.independentbroker.com.au. It will take me a couple of days to have it full operating but check on it and spread the word

Savvy Investor June 25, 2009

Ken Bruns and Key Change and several others have restated the point I was trying to drive home. Open aggression does not achieve the outcome you are trying to obtain. If we want change, then we brokers must work together to identify the points of contention and eliminate them or work around them.

As with any problem there are only 3 possible choices you can make - live with it, fix it or leave.

I always try to add a possible solution/idea to any issue I post about to encourage others to do the same. If we all start thinking about ways to fix it rather than just venting about what a problem it is then nothing gets solved. The first step in any problem is defining the scope and measuring where we are. This enables us to work towards where we would like things to be.

As I see it the problem is fairly well documented in Erving and Xerxes posts (albeit somewhat adversarially).

The Banks are fast becoming the only game in town (demonstrated by their market share) and whilst we and our clients may not like it that will not change the facts overnight. The banks contend that they favour their own staff for the following reasons:-
1) They know policy and cause less rework
2) The loans cost them less to write because of 1).

Prove them wrong (should be easy going by the brokers we are friends with)… as brokers we have to work harder and smarter and leaner as we are one step removed from the funds but we have the advantage of our greater knowledge and that our hands are not tied like the Bank’s staff. Also we really care about these people we represent, we are not paid salespeople by any one institution.

As Ken’s post stated, the CBA did not want to work with brokers ever. Market forces inflicted us upon them, thus clearly demonstrating the effective strategy of providing a superior service and options over dealing directly with just one Bank. We can, and will, win back their business - on our terms, as we remain the best option for our clients (just ask any of ours).

Suggestion - We must demand equal disclosure as the Banks currently hide the costs of doing business with them, so clients get the mistaken idea that they are getting the money cheaper by ‘dealing direct’.

What is annoying to me is that the opportunity to lock them in was missed and now that market power (through factors outside our direct control) has swayed temporarily back to them without us locking in acceptable timeframes and conditions for the service they provide to us. We should have asked for the ability to openly rate their service and penalise them for their mistakes as a true partnership should work when the power was with the broker channel.

Suggestion - I fully support a broker union not allowing Bank membership. Their issues are not our and aggregators are not there to fight our battles only to aggregate our loans and keep us compliant with changing policy and tools to find product. Whilst they may want to say that they are there to represent our interests this not something they have the power to achieve - as they must work with the Banks and not against them to get us access to the funds. Anyone who thinks it can work any other way is deluding themselves. NB: This does not mean that brokers can not have their own representation and their own agenda.

We do not avoid using the majors but when we present one to the client we point out the facts about their service levels and how they conduct business and most of our clients choose for themselves to go elsewhere if the product is comparable. In fact most of our clients are moving away from the majors because of their lack of service. Honesty and full disclosure is still the best (and only) policy.

Paul June 25, 2009

Abraham Lincoln has been quoted - so let me quote Dr Phil - “you cannot change what you don’t acknowledge”.

I am all for positive action, but the key message in my first post is that positive change cannot occur until we have acknowledgment of the problem.

The problem is that the key respresentational bodies (aggregators) who sit before the major banks will not acknowledge that there is a problem.

The problem is that we cannot deal with the major banks as business partners - the major banks are simply SUPPLIERS of money to our business. I own and operate three very different businesses and in all three I do not treat my suppliers as I do my business partners.

Yes, I treat my suppliers with respect but the relationship is always predicated on the basis that they are trying to achieve the best profit outcome for their business which is inverse to the profit outcomes for my business. If my supplier charges me more - then I make less, if my supplier cuts costs then my service standards are affected.

It is a constant balancing act between supplier and customer and if this balance tips against me I will look to find an alternate supplier.

In the broker industry source of supply is currently limited but brokers are still writing substantial volume and thus still have some leverage (collectively) to bring about change.

Regretably our representative bodies (aggregators, MFAA etc) are ineffective in pursuing change as “you cannot change what you do not acknowledge”

Greg June 25, 2009

Paul you have nailed it.
Ray Hair, will you please read Paul’s latest posting(at least six times so it sinks in) and take that as the polite general consensus, back to your board room and stick that message right up the lenders. Frame it and place it in a prominent place in the boardroom, to be read out loud by the chair, at the start of every board meeting into the future.

We don’t care if you have to suspend major suppliers as long as you represent us and start to fight for us, stand up straight and don’t bend over any more.

Three Cheers Paul..

Savvy Investor June 25, 2009

Hi Paul and Greg,

Far be it from me to disparage Dr. Phil and his well known quotes… but “you can not change what you don’t acknowledge” is both stupid and pointless like other well meaning and incorrect platitudes that some people take for fact such as “time in the market and not timing in the market is what is important”. I can acknowledge many things I can not change (like the Sun) and I can change things I do not acknowledge (like fashion) without meaning to.

In this instance you have mistaken lack of acknowledgement with lack of willingness to do so publicly or desire to act upon it. I can accept things in private to be true that I may be forced to deny publicly (personal versus corporate views). N.O.P.E. applies here (Not Our Problem Either). I full agree with Paul that the Banks are our suppliers and not our partners - and it is foolish to assume otherwise, but if you run out of suppliers and there is still high demand for that product and someone else is still selling it, then you have to grin and bear it until something better comes along. Or you could sell that product as a loss leader or stop selling that item. If the last option then be prepared to lose all the accessory products too that went with that item and the flow of traffic that would visit you to by it, and end up buying other products too/instead.

Gary June 25, 2009

Dissillusioned PLAN member.

Bottom line here is:
If a client with full information goes in to a CBA Branch & a Broker on the same day the result is totally different.
Our Local Branch can get approvals within the day and even produce loan docs if needed.
We are lucky to get them to acknowledge the deal in 1 day.
Who is “pulling who’s” here Ray?

Anti Ray June 25, 2009

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Broker in the 'burbs June 25, 2009

A number of aggregators are now, just part of the ‘banks’ vertically integrated sales models, that run in conjunction with their other distribution channels. I mean, if banks own the aggregator, whose interests are the aggregators really considering?

The vested interest of many aggregators today is simply one of

1. Doing their masters bidding (i.e. Banks)
2. Securing market share (brokers)
3. Improving margins and
4. Providing the conduit for banks to control ALL distribution channels and margins at each stage of the sales process.

Banks have endeavoured to own distribution since day dot.

So, what are the options

Participating brokers have to have a controlling interest (i.e. shareholding)in their own aggregation model, with the accompanying voting rights that will translate into having some market muscle with product manufacturers going forward.

Now, the FBAA (as an example) could establish a non profit aggregation model, ‘owned’ by participating brokers, with a mandate to protect the interests of brokers in the industry, to provide a platform for ‘real’ broker muscle and to negotiate head agreement terms with a view to represent the needs and aspirations of the broker channel. At least then, they’d be relevant to brokers!!

It’s just a pity that so many brokers have found themselves in ridiculously non competitive aggregation contracts, so for many, changing aggregation firms is a moot point.

And Keychange…..I’ll keep an eye on the domain you’ve registered too. In my opinion, the more brokers that have the ability to discuss issues, the better for all. Rather than being led like ‘lambs to the slaughter’, some self determination in ‘OUR’ industry, may be well and truly overdue!!

Savvy Investor June 25, 2009

A good idea from Broker in the ‘burbs. Rather than a political pressure group, the formation of an independent aggregator that works for broker members - I can see that being a model that many would be attracted to.

Suggestion - Their fees/commissions would be set so that they cover their overheads and any over collection would be plowed back as dividends to members at year end or for additional advertising of the group - subject to majority approval. This would certainly motivate other aggregation providers to improve service levels or face possible defection and loss of new entrants.

Broker in the 'burbs June 25, 2009

Savvy Investor,

Yep, why not indeed! So long as it’s developed(broker owned aggregation) as broadly on a non profit approach (in my opinion) otherwise it will be just another ‘business venture’ for the benefit of a few.

Think of it as a co-operative. Farmers & small retailers have for years figured out that co-ops work for them in economic terms.

When keychange gets the http://www.independantbroker.com.au forum up & running then we can get a ‘feel’ for how many brokers would move on an ‘in principle’ basis to this type of aggregation model, then we can engage an experienced industry ‘consultant’ on matters aggregation to ‘advise’ us on ‘how to’ etc, then away we go.

If we got a couple of hundred brokers interested, and each committed a couple of hundred each, then perhaps we might make some ground here.

If I’m compelled to pay $$$ to either the FBAA or the MFAA for not much, I’d be more than happy to pay $$$ to set up a co-op, with voting rights as well as having my voice heard in a commercial sense. I’d also get remunerated without any extortion like commission splits either.

Gotta be better than the current set up.

Xerxes June 25, 2009

Good idea savy & burbs,

I’d definitely be interested in putting dollars into (& time discussing & formulating) a broker owned ‘not for profit’ aggregation co-op with low overheads, acting purely in the interest of brokers and not existing as a business venture to make money.

I’d drop my aggregation firm in a heart beat if such a viable option was available (I bet many other brokers would too).

keychanges independantbroker.com.au sounds like a good place to start. What do you think keychange?

KeyChange June 25, 2009

Hi I have the forum up and running

http://independentbroker.com.au/

Greg June 25, 2009

I’m in.

Could easily bring another half dozen or so.

AFG people will be difficult though, because of their restriction of trade clauses in their agreement.

wickedmessenger June 25, 2009

A co op gee that will work well…

Greg June 25, 2009

Wicked.

Is that you Ray?

Broker in the 'burbs June 25, 2009

Wicked

That was Co-Op ‘like’ champ….!! An analogy if you like.

Clearly there would be hurdles, objections and brick walls in setting up something like this, but it isn’t rocket science. If the banks don’t come to the party, then another model would need to be developed.

Years ago, fund managers provided products (retail & wholesale) to financial planners, who ultimately had no pricing control nor did they have equity in the products / platforms they recommended / sold. They just got a commission, based on whatever the fund managers decided to give them.

Boutique Financial Planning groups learnt the hard way that loss of distribution / product control (& nil equity) was detrimental to their own economic destiny.

So I put it to you…..why wouldn’t ‘it’ work? An aggregation model is an aggregation model. This idea simply differs with who owns it and how the revenues are cut up.

Mike Z June 25, 2009

From my perspective, can’t see too much wrong with what Ray’s said. Understand the feeling in the market at the moment but many of these posts are way out of line.

DJT June 26, 2009

“Way out of line”Mike Z. Who’s line? What a patronising platitudinous cliche.
Ray has raised some issues, many other have raised other issues from the Brokers perspective and now action is being organised. Brokers are angry frustrated and sick of being beaten up and robbed by everyone else in the channel.
There’s a new line coming Mike. It goes customer to broker to lender, the way this channel got started, without middlemen (who incidentally are the root cause of the GFC). Add real value to the channel or get out of the way. Try that for a new perspective Mike.
I think it is amazing and exciting that a whole bunch of very independent small business brokers are talking organisation to protect their rights, incomes and futures. It starts here and now. Call it unionism, collective, co-op, guild whatever - the right structure will evolve and it will be robust and increase our independence, not stifle it.
Choose your line Mike, but choose carefully.
All brokers join http://independentbroker.com.au/ while we get this show on the road

Brad July 6, 2009

Folks the Banks have the upper hand for the moment. The comment from confused, who are we working for ourselves or the client. It is the client’s interests that we need to consider and this is the reason Brokers exist
The part I enjoyed about Brokering is showing people better ways to arrange their finances to suite their needs. These opportunities were created by Deregulation. This is one aspect that will generally disappear with the emergence of the Banks dominance. Banks have no interest in advancing a clients Well Being, they are only interested in how much money that client can contribute to their bottom line
As many have said the Banks only goal is Banks profits for the their share holders. The Banks management lurch from one position to another and they are always a step behind of what they should do. That has been my life experience, they are reactors. The best saying to explain how Banks think ” They lend you an umbralla when the sun is shining when it rains they demand it Back”
There are Brokers in this industry that are not up to standard, but this also applies to Banks staff. Any body who writes a Loan, Bank staff or Broker should have the same qualifications.
They are always calling for more training for Brokers, I have done at least 2 Diploma in this industry, and I have learned more from life experience then the diploma.
The best way Brokers can react is to make sure those other Lenders are busy all the time. So what if CBA puts harsh restrictions on you, Just say to the client no I do not deal with that Bank- sorry but they demand that I must send X number of deals regards whether it is in your best interests. Brokers forget something Banks standing in the community is very low, so they are very seldom going to question your opinion.
Have confidence in your own abilities, and use your power to choose the Lender and educate your clients. Lobby your local Federal Government member and make them aware of the mess they have created

The Brokers Bank July 7, 2009

Well it is about time we all got fed up enough to make some noise.
Capitilism is impresive to watch and “learn from”. First we see the media and so called economists used to encourage people to lock in mortgages at high fixed rates and the within 6 months we see the interest rate boomerang down to the lowest rate in 40 years. That is impressive foresite from lenders. We also see the MFAA not really giving a stuff about brokers losing an average of $400 per loan and why ? Because the major Platinum sponsor, the CBA, pays the bills and pulls the strings.That is how capitalism works. Now we understand that it is capitilism we are dealing with then we could also summize Ray Hairs position and comments. (PS I am a Plan Broker and have been happy with PLAN).
At the end of the day we as brokers got lazy and forgot how to sell and let the big lenders back in and we as brokers united can change that. By all of us getting together we could set up our own bank and our own union and we would be the shareholders and as such we dictate our futures.
We use our trails and our own funds so we then have the power to offer the best deals and then forget the other lenders, if we choose too.
Why would we need them if we can provide OUR clients the absolute best deal on the market. (No other bank sponsorship allowed…..)
Banks will always try to divide us and try to buy us off. It isnt until it hits the fan that we finally get together and rally.
At the very least we just put our own union together ( Absolutely no Bank sponsorship nor MFAA sponsorship allowed ) What ever we do must be controlled and funded totally by Brokers. Brokers get paid upfront and trail and as shareholders get dividends. Clients get the best deal on the market. Australia is becoming capitalistic and we can alter that and get a fair deal back to everybody.
By the way, I have been broking for twelve years and 70% of my work is Lo Doc and I have only had 2 delinquencies ever and I pride my self in puting a loan together proffessionally but the lenders never seems to give credit when due. No they cut your wages instead. So do you really believe any of the other crap they feed us ?

Greg July 7, 2009

Hey Brokers Bank.

If you are a PLAN member, we virtually have our own Bank as you describe it.

They call it “Challenger”.

Now, if we could only get them to do some more realistic lending.

Xerxes July 7, 2009

Hi Broker bank,

The group of brokers that gets this type of concept off the ground will have a true winner.

The key as you insinuate is to have the ownership of the company in the hands of brokers with the common good of the customers at its core. If not, it will simply be just another lender ultimately motivated by greed. This greed is counter to the interest of the customers. As I’ve heard said many times, the Major Banks attempt to tick people off just enough for them to stay.

A broker owned lender operating super effeciently, operating on a non profit basis, with brokers earning reasonable money (without being greedy) & a customer friendly ethos would turn the industry upside down.

White labelling is not the answer, relying on companies like Challenger is not the answer (though the company could partner with Challenger to provide the funding), the rebirth of mortgage managers is not the answer. The lender must be owned by brokers (on a non profit basis), designed & set up by brokers & focused on customers.

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